And I think we are confusing concepts here...

If the attack went through defense Mario would win because he dealt more damage.

Nurvus, whatever is absorbed by defense can't be considered damage. If it doesn't hit your enemy it can't be considered damage, it is just "lost physical attack". Think about it, what about when your attack is lower than the opponents defense, do you consider your physical attack as damage? Surely not, since it will be totally absorbed. (BTW, when that happens the game shows a very clear message: "no DAMAGE inflicted").

So when you say "damage that was absorbed by defense vs damage that was absorbed by extra health", in my eyes, you are messing up with the concept of damage. Damage is never absorbed by defense, if the physical attack is absorbed by defense then damage doesn't exist.

But, even if you disagree, my point with my previous example was that now you can see that your system does not work in every single scenario because it is also unbalanced (one of the characters starts already with more points, so if they deal exactly the same damage we would have a winner instead of a draw).

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Tracker
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Aren't you confusing something?

I know the rules of the game, okay?
I know what is damage and wha isn't.

What I'm saying, is that each character has its own means of dealing damage, and its own means of withstanding damage.

I'm not discussing wich is better.
I'm saying that as far as Score goes, those that withstand damage by preventing it (defense, damage reduction, spirit) have a SCORE advantage over those that withstand damage with additional Health.

If you have more health and I have more defense, my defense is reducing your score (in terms of damage), but your health doesn't reduce mine.

This is what I am calling unbalanced.
Is it so hard to understand?

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What about magic attackers then? If your logic is correct then should your 0 defense rule also affect those who 0 spirit to protect them from a magic attack, too?

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Ty Boadicea for the awesome farewell gift. Now just to think up an avatar to go with it. Anyway, I'm still a Sap/Nomad/Pirates fan and user.

Hey again,

Well, maybe I am confusing something, why not? But since nobody pointed anything out up to now I'm just assuming I'm getting it right Let me know if you notice anything.

Now...

2 posts ago I totally agreed with what you said just now.

What I addressed on my last post were two other issues:

1 - Confusion between physical attack/damage. (I'm sure you know the rules, I never said you don't, remember that whatever I say is not absolute true, it is only my perspective, as I assume your posts are your perspective). I'm not concerned about this anymore... I think we all know the rules and understand this...

2 - Your solution, since it is still uneven. And my support for that is that your solution does not apply in the situation of direct damage, as I showed in my example.

No, what you said is not hard to understand. That is why I already partially agreed with it.
Extra Health alone doesn't balance higher defense TRUE
Let's balance it by adding the character's HP to the score FALSE

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Tracker
Witchblade / Compendium
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Air Guemelite
Corruption

I was also answering to specific things you said:


But what is "absorbed" by extra health is considered damage, wich is why it's unbalanced.

If the extra health also didn't count for damage, it would be balanced.
Adding your Health to your own Score has the same result - but is less complicated - than subtracting your extra health from the opponent's score.


You are right in all those statements.
I only disagree with its relevance to my discussion.
Why? Because characters are balanced around their various stats.
Health is a stat, but health is the only stat that penalizes you when it takes the place of other defensive stats.

This isn't even about defense or spirit.
Imagine - she has 0 defense, 17 health and takes -1 damage.
Imagine another character with 0 defense as well, but more health.
Assuming both characters have equal chances of winning, the character with more health has score disadvantage because he trades damage reduction with extra health.



You're absolutely right.
And I'm saying, that for that to be balanced, the damage absorbed by extra health shouldn't exist either.

And that is why my system works in every scenario.

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Nurvus can explain better, but if I understood correctly, his point is that it should be if that lack of spirit is compensated by higher HP. His point (again, if I understood correctly) is that higher HP is something that will always count against you, so it shouldn't count towards the score. (Basically defense, spirit, or whatever damage reductor does not really matter). Is that correct Sir Nurvus?



Nurvus, I quite not agree with you yet, but I don't want to make this post too long. So for now I'm picking up only your last sentence, which I totally disagree with (sorry). I will show you two different examples where it does not work, unless you can show me otherwise (I will use your last proposal, reducing the extra health).

1st Example - Direct Damage (which I already used as an example before)
Their stats (except health) doesn't matter on that case.

Kimiko LV3
HP 13

Dandy LV3
HP 12

Suppose after a few rounds, they manage to deal 15 direct damage to each other (also suppose that was the only source of damage for the whole game). On the actual system that would be a draw (which, in my opinion, it is balanced, since the damage dealt was the same). However on your score it would be:
Kimiko = 15
Dandy = 15 - 1 (from opponent's extra health) = 14
Kimiko wins.
Q: Do you think that is fair? Could you explain why?

2nd Example - Magical Damage
Pilkim LV4
SP 2
HP 13

Ayako LV4
SP 2
HP 14

Suppose that on the first round both manage to deal 20 magical damage (again, that is the only source of damage). Now observe: it means that both Ayako's and Pilkim's total magical attacks were 24, but those where evidently absorbed twice by their spirits. Again, since the damage was the same, normally that would be a draw, but according to your system:
Pilkim = 20 - 1 (from opponent's extra health) = 19
Ayako = 20
Ayako wins.
Q: Do you think that is fair? Could you explain why?

So, unless if you can show us how your system would work to balance these two cases, you can't really say that it works in every single scenario.
In other words: you can show me three hundred more examples where your system works, and I could believe you or not. But could you make those specific examples work? I think that if you could it would make your point much more clearer to all of us.

After you reply to this, I have still more comments about your last topic, points which I disagree with. But let's deal with this first

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Tracker
Witchblade / Compendium
War Guemelite / Priest
Shadow Guemelite
Air Guemelite
Corruption

edborbajr, I don't dealing the same damage to one another balanced on its own.
In my opinion, your proposed situation is not balanced, because both have a similar damage capability, yet one has simply more health.

What I consider a balanced situation, is when both the survivability and damage dealing each character has cause both to die with the same health, already accounting for the possibility of one depending more on health, and the other depending on ANY other means for survivability, such as healing, reducing incoming damage, preventing enemy from chaining, etc.

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HEY NURVUS, DID YOU KNOW?!
I invented the first viable non-self-damaging TG's.
Everything you're saying is incorrect. Because yes, the other character dealt more damage to you, The point of having such a high pool of health and variety of effects, they reduced many forms of damage to near NOTHING.
Immortals were WARRIORS that had effects that HEALED them while having strong item and permanent support. Their healing made up for their slightly smaller variety of damage negation(Mainly analog instead of universal damage reduction)
Please Learn To Play Desert Nomads before complaining about why you lost.
This is my thread from the old forums. You can't just dive into the current strategy without knowing HOW the deck's WORK.
http://forum.eredan.com/viewtopic.php?id=33499

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Fixing Eredan
Courtiers are not your friends

You can't dive into a thread without knowing what's being discussed.

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so if I understand you correctly:
I have saphyra the zil, telndar and abomination against
prius, ixor and centorium, I manage to bring all his character to 0 health point. the opponent brings saphyra and abo to 0 and telendar to -1.

He has dealt a total of 40 damages (an additionnal 7 were blocked by armor)
I dealt a total of 47 damage (an additionnal 7 were blocked by armor)

My opponent ends up with a sore of 40+47
I end up with a score of 39+47 and I loose to the score...

You're right, that looks fair...

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--EXYLEME--
"-oh mon dieu! ils ont tués Kenny!
-espèce d'enfoirés!"