I would like an answer from Feerik as to why do high printed health characters have a clear disadvantage regarding Score at the end of the game.

Desert Nomads, for example, they have higher health, but lower defense. I'm not complaining about this.
So they have more health but are easier to damage. I'm not complaining about this.

At the end of a game, if all characters die with 0 Health, Desert Nomads lose.
This is what I'm complaining about.

Let's take this scenario:
- Two characters, A and B
- After cards are played, the Character A has 16 Attack, 0 Defense and 16 health
- After cards are played, the Character B has 16 Attack, 3 Defense and 13 health
- Both die and end up with 0 Health. This is balanced.
- At the end Character B wins with a Score of 16 versus the Character A's Score of 13.This is unbalanced.

My suggestion is simple:
Add the total Printed Health of your characters to your own Score.
There, fixed.

How hard is it to implement this?

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I don't think this needs balancing. Technically speaking, it's the Desert Nomads' special trait. Call it a disadvantage if you may, but against Magic Casters, a higher printed health is definitely an advantage to survivability where Defense totally means nothing.

It's like how Nehantists decks can't include Mercenaries. If this is balanced as it you've suggested, there'd be no point in considering which guild is which whatsoever 'cuz everyone and everything would pretty much be the same.

It's their unique traits that adds flavour.

You seem to be missing the point.

Whether Desert Nomad increased Health is good against Mages, only affects how easily Desert Nomads can win or lose against Mages.
When I say Desert Nomad, I say War Guemelite Runics, Ice Elves.
Even two kotoba decks, where Warriors have around 14-15 Health, and Marauders have around 12-13.

Those decks don't have a higher chance to defeat Mages, wich kind of invalidates your argument.

If higher printed health is a characteristic of that character's gameplay, then it means the gameplay is meant to be balanced including that characteristic.

What I AM discussing, is how when both sides have all characters reach 0 Health, the side with more Printed Health loses.
This is unfair, because the side with higher Printed Health does not have a higher chance to win just because of their Health.

It's quite simple. Either:
a) Higher Health characters have better chances to kill the enemy team, wich is unbalanced, or
b) Higher Health characters have the same chances to win, and the end game score is unbalanced.

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I think he gets the point and you're missing it Nurvus. He's saying desert nomads trade doing better against mages for doing worse if the game is decided by points. This adds flavor and strategy as it makes the desert nomads unique. It is a trade off; it is not a strict disadvantage of the clan.

I would just like to say, somewhat off point, that I apologize for being mostly negative towards your suggestions. You have posted MANY today. I agree with most of them (or parts of them at least). I simply feel the need to respond to things i disagree with more. I appreciate your suggestions Nurvus, and the active role youve taken in trying to give the developers new ideas to make this game better. That said, although you have many good ideas, they are not ALL good ideas.

Except Desert Nomads aren't mage killers.
And this isn't a problem specific to Desert Nomads.
It extends throughout the whole game.
You have War Guemelite Runics and Ice Elves with high Health and low Spirit & Defense.
Even among the same Guild and Class, higher Health creates an unfair disadvantage as far as end game score goes.

This game is NOT Rock-Scissor-Paper-Rock, so forget about those concepts.
High Health characters can win and lose against all sorts of Decks.

The only meaningful difference is in the end game score.
If I'm fighting against a high health deck, I automatically know that if I kill them, I win, even if my characters die as well.
This isn't balanced.

Taking a reverse perspective, if Feerik adds to everyone's score their own characters' Printed Health, what happens is that fights will be determined properly.

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Well then, let's try to look at it in a strategic gameplay point of view.

What are Desert Nomads known for?
High health.
What else?
Their exceptional healing abilities.
Having a higher health cap allows better healing.
Let's not forget that you do GAIN POINTS from healing. And Nomads are pretty good at doing that, even so, they're able to increase their health cap through cards, notably Temple Guardians. Their Eclipses may lose out easily against higher armour opponents, but their initial high damage + Solaris allows them to gain an edge. Immortals, well they're pretty good at that without saying so.

Now that's for giving a point on the Nomads.

On the other hand, I would definitely prefer characters with higher HP, because basically they're harder to get 1-Hit-KO'ed. Marauders of course have lower HP, because they pack higher damage output, but it also means they have a higher chance of being 6-feet under in the first fight. Usually the characters make up for what they lack, whether in HP they make up for damage, or for damage they make up with DEF, etc.

Let's say if we do apply that concept you proposed to the end-game points, what happens to discard decks? Say, if a discard deck meets a discard deck, both ends up throwing away each others' cards, and those with a higher printed HP to start with will definitely gain a clear Advantage over the game right? Since discarding is very much not about tearing up your opponent, but rather tearing up his deck of cards ASAP.

You got a few good concept proposals on the game Nurvus, but I think this one in particular shouldn't be "balanced", not that it needs any.

There's also less cards that make you permanenly lose your health (only one character and one item can do it) compare to defence or spirit. The hp is also one of the best defence compare to defence or spirit, because it prevent physical, magical and direct dommage. Nomad have laos a lot of cards to reduce incoming dommage, so in my opinion, they are balance.

First, you continue to talk about off-topic arguments such as who is best at what.
Second, you continue to talk about Nomads - when I already said it holds true for everyone, even between 2 characters of the same class and guild. If their health is different, even if they have equal chances at winning, the one with more health will give the opponent a better score, and lose.

But, no matter. I'll entertain you.
1 - Health and Healing don't synergize with each other.
Higher Health cap doesn't allow better healing. It's actually harder to heal.

Health and Healing synergize with high defenses - spirit, defense and damage reduction.
It's simple logic...
- The better your defenses are (harder to lose health), the better Health and Healing is for you
- The lower your defenses are (easier to lose Health), the better defensive stats are for you
Example:
Scenario A: Enemy deals 8 physical damage.
Scenario B: Enemy deals 5 magic damage twice.
Your characters heal 2 HP at the start of each turn.
18 HP & 0 Def & 0 Spi
- Scenario A = -8+2-8+2-8 = -2 (3rd fight)
- Scenario B = -5-5+2-5-5 = 0 (2nd fight)
15 HP & 2 Def & 1 Spi
- Scenario A = -6+2-6+2-6 = 0 (3rd fight)
- Scenario B = -4-4+2-4-4+2-4-4 = -5 (3rd fight)
13 HP & 3 Def & 2 Spi
- Scenario A = -5+2-5+2-5+2-5 = -1 (4th fight)
- Scenario B = -3-3+2-3-3+2-3-3 = -1 (3rd fight)
A character that sacrifices defenses for more health is the less durable when healing is involved.
Healing someone who takes alot of damage is ineffective.
On the other hand, healing someone who is good at avoiding damage is very effective.

2 - Nomad healing isn't exceptional.
Tsoutai, Avalonians, Corruption, Runic Priests, even Runic Warriors (Resistance), Sap Heart and even Crow heal just as well - none of these have as much Health as Desert Nomads.
Some of those are also better at killing mages.

3 - Your Discard vs Discard argument fails because:
If one side has a higher health total, don't expect them to also have similar damage and defense.
A discard deck with high amount of health and no drawbacks would always be used anyway. Who would use easy-to-kill discard characters unless they have some sort of advantage?
If one side manages to compensate for the others' superior attack or defense, then he deserves the extra points at the end of the game.

4 - The argument about plenty cards reducing defense, but few reducing HP, is hillarious...
The way to reduce HP, is dealing damage.
It doesn't matter what your max HP is.
The more damage you take, more healing you need to get back to full HP.
You can have defense-reducing cards in your deck, but what if your opponent doesn't rely on defense? What if your opponent relies on reducing your own attack, or preventing damage, or whatever?
The one thing that always works is damage. Cards that increase damage, increase attack, always work.
Cards that reduce stats, may or not work, depending on your opponent.
So that argument is irrelevant, as your choice of cards has to do with YOUR strategy. The Quick Draw means to deal damage involves reducing enemy defense, because it provides better increase to their damage.
Funny enough, Nomads die the fastest against Quick Draw precicely because they have 0 Defense.
Temple Guardians play Forced March, Quick Draw easily anticipates with Curved Shot after a Bow.
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Again, I'm not discussing whether Nomads are too weak or too strong.
I'm not discussing Nomads at all!

My point is as simple as this:
If you have two characters, one with 12 HP and one with 13 HP, and they have equal chances of defeating each other, the one with 13 HP is at disadvantage because of the score system.
Is this hard for you to understand?

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Oh boy you're back.

Either way I will just summarize it this way. You're mad that DF blocks points and if you honestly think having high HP and no Df is a problem face Immortals.

Even with a full cust Elfine deck I still lose to them.

Oh boy, and you persist with the gimmick examples.
Do you want to compare mage deck vs eclipse focused on harshness and other anti-mage cards too?
Do you want to compare unknown courtesan direct damage deck vs sakina's guardians too?

Go ahead and make extreme comparisons.
It has nothing to do with this thread.

In the end, the simplest comparison is what you evade the most, as if you're afraid to realize the truth.
If two characters beat each other to 0 HP, the one with the most printed HP penalizes his player the most.

Only printed Health has this disadvantage in the game.

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